Oct

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Posted by The *Angriest* Pharmacist as Education, Just a question, Pharmacy School

I get a lot of questions asked of me via my CONTACT ME page. They range from drug information, to theoretical questions, and even ‘online mental statust exams’ as I’ve come to call them. ["I think I'm depressed. What's good for that?"] Of all the questions I get, there’s one that I get every other day — at least.

I’m thinking about going to pharmacy school. What are the requirements? Will I get in? I heard it’s hard from my friend. Would you do it again?

Well, as everyone knows, that question is a mouthful. Let me address each question in separate sections. What are the requirements? Well, the assumption that I know the requirements of every pharmacy school in the United States is quite humbling. I realize people are just ‘thinking out loud’ when they ask this. If you really wanna know the requirements for a specific school, find their webpage. It’ll be on there. If it’s not, call them. They’ll tell you — it’s not a secret. I would GUESS that most schools want at least a 26 on the ACT. A 28 is probably a given. IF you have a 30+, you can get into any school you want. I would imagine most schools look more heavily at ACT than GPA these days, but your GPA should at least be in the top 20-25% [Top 10% would be better]. Most schools are also going to want you to have some extra curriculars: Student Council, National Honor Society, Sports, Math/Physics Clubs, Future Business Leaders, etc.

Now, I’m assuming that your applying to a 6-year program, where you are in pharmacy school right after high school. If someone is inquiring about a 8-year track, where you get a 4-year undergrade, apply to pharmacy school, then do 4-year of actual pharmacy school — that’s a completely different ballgame. That’s going to be based MOSTLY on your PCAT (Pharmacy College Admission Test) score. I didn’t take that, so I don’t know how it’s scored or what you need to get into pharmacy school. In this route, they are also going to want you to have a much better GPA — at LEAST Top 10% I’d assume. Organizational involvement is also a plus: Student Government, fraternities, Young Democrats/Republicans, etc.

Will I get in? That question is totally based on the requirements and what each specific institution is looking for. Honestly, being a minority does not hurt in some cases. In my class, I had 4 black females and zero black males. Does that mean my school is racist? No. It means none applied, otherwise they would have been accepted if they met the minimum requirements for admission. Of course, I went to school with a lot of Indian and Chinese students — so it wasn’t all white. [Just throwing that in there]

I heard it’s hard, would you do it again? First, I want to direct your attention to the image below. It is a picture of a poll that I ran on my website from March 5, 2008 to June 10, 2008.

As you can see, a whole lot of pharmacists would go again (if 18-years old of course), but a whole lot wouldn’t. I, myself, would go to pharmacy school again if I were 18. You aren’t wrong, pharmacy school is difficult, but in the long run it is worth it. I came out of pharmacy school with $100k debt, but I make $100k+ per year before taxes. I plan on having that paid off in 15 years from my graduation date.

Pharmacy school is hard, but it was a lot of fun for me. The difficulty of the curriculum makes the atmosphere on Friday night very interesting. People drink for a reason — to forget the pain of failing that test, quiz, etc. My school was far from a party school, but there were a ton of great times and wild parties. Some people party a little too hard, and they fail out…actually, lots fail out. My class started at ~220, and I graduated with about 150-160 — I think. Why is it so hard? To weed out the fools. My school always said they didn’t weed out students, but that’s bullshit. Every school has to do it in graduate level programs to reduce class size, and for the reason I said — removal of idiocy.

In pharmacy school, however, the students really form a bond. In an environment where the school is fighting against you day-in and day-out, a very overwhelming aura of US versus THEM develops. The class really sticks together — especially in the latter years. Why? Because there’s no reason for competition. The C+ student gets the same Pharm.D. as the A+ student. Now, don’t get me wrong, everyone hates transfers for busting the curve, making it harder on everyone, and asking asinine theoretical questions extending class time, but that aside, we stuck together. Because of this ‘bond,’ I really think the friends you make in pharmacy school mean a little more to you than friends you meet in college that may not even be in the same school of study as you. I met my wife, my two best men, a ton of fraternity brothers, and lifelong friends at pharmacy school. To this day, I have 40-50 numbers in my cell phone of people in my pharmacy school. I may not call them — we may not have been close friends in pharmacy school. But, I bet if I called them and asked them a question or for a small favor, they’d do it for me. We worked together to get the best of the school — and not let that motherfucker get the best of us.

So, would I do it again? Yup.
Would everyone do it again? Obviously not.

But, I bet those pharmacists didn’t make the most of their school. They spent their nights in their rooms studying…not associating with everyone else and getting the most out of their connections.

-=+=-

Are you sad that you didn’t go to Med School? Sometimes, I get this as an added variation. From reading the answer to the above question, it’s quite obvious that I’m NOT sad that I didn’t go to Medical School. I got accepted into a 6-year medical school program. It would have been year-round, guaranteed mental illness, and very tough. But, I’m sure it offered the same bond-like benefits I spoke of about pharmacy school. Anyway, I don’t think I would have enjoyed it. I love my Profession. Sometimes, my job sucks — but I love pharmacy — I love drugs — I love educating people about their drugs, therapies, and general healthcare. Personally, I think I have too much common sense to be a medical doctor. I couldn’t imagine making some of the stupid ass fucking mistakes these jokers make on some prescriptions — like not signing them, writing for blatant obvious interactions (which are the big ones that even someone that only took a semester of pharmacology should know — Bactrim DS and Coumadin, anyone?), and continually failing to follow simple instructions (Testing Strips — For Medicare must have diagnosis code and EXACT directions/quantity — yet I call the same idiot-bastards 2x/wk for this wasting everyone’s time). The thought of med school after pharmacy school did cross my mine for 0.0004 seconds. But, it’s a round about way to get an MD, and would’ve added at least 8 more years, 150k more debt, and a ton more headache. Would it have been worth it for another 150k/yr (minimum, of course) and more worries in practice (like crazy malpractice)? I dunno. For some, I guess.

I have a theory though — your either a doctor or a pharmacist. You can’t really be both. You have to know. The personality is different. The profession is different. What you do on a daily basis is completely different. One is diagnosis, the other is treatment. There are a ton of differences. While pharmacy is considered a practice, it is, in my mind, an exact science. Everything in order — everything in an exact, precise way — 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Sometimes, medicine has to be different. Diagnosis may sometimes be 4,2,3,5,1. That just doesn’t click with pharmacists. Recipes are a must with pharmacists. Doctors may be a little bit more abstract. Just a random, late-night analysis. Take it for what it is.

How much money do you make? This is another question that sometimes gets tacked on. While that’s a very rude question to ask someone, coming from someone looking to spend the next 6 (or 8) years of their life studying to be a pharmacist, it is acceptable in this case. As of writing this, I gross about 110k per year and bring home about 80-85k depending on my donations, income from my other business (not pharmacy related), and some other factors I know nothing about. This is about average for pharmacists, and I work VERY little overtime. It may be lower than what some of you have heard, but I live in a somewhat smaller town and the cost of living is fairly low. Now, keep in mind that when I left college, I had over 100k in student loans. I’m still paying those back, and I will be for another 15+ years. So, again, take it for what it is. We make more, but we are stretched thin until those loans are gone. However, if you live modestly, you can pay them back very quickly. Don’t run out and buy a hummer. Wait, save, and spend it later on…:-)

So, does that answer the question? I sure hope so! Any follow up questions or comments?

Further information for those that would ask this question:
Request from 2008 Graduate (2-16-08) – The 2nd most commented post I’ve ever had. My advice for successful inculcation into the trenches for 2008 Pharmacy School grads.
So you are going to Pharmacy School (3-7-08) – Similar to the post for Pharm.D. graduates, but this one is directed to high school grads or those entering pharmacy school.

PCAT Sources:
PCAT practice test
Kaplan PCAT
Barron’s PCAT
Peterson’s PCAT Success
http://www.pcatprofessor.com/

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10 Comments »

Pharmacy Mike says October 9th, 2008 at 6:51 pm

A good review of pharmacy school, but I have one comment that probably doesn’t change things very much.

I think most schools have you enter as a freshman intoa pre-pharmacy major. That basically means that you’re taking the prerequisites to get into pharmacy school, but you haven’t applied yet. After your 3rd semester, you then apply to the pharmacy school, and you find out if you get in before the end of your 4th semester.

At least that’s how it worked with my school. My pharmacy school has since gotten very very competitive. When I applied, if I had a 2.7 GPA in all my science courses, I would have been guaranteed acceptance. Now, there is no guaranteed acceptance because the number of applicants has increased greatly, but they’ve kept the incoming class size the same (about 100 students). If I were applying today, I’d still get in, but I’d probably stress about it a little.

I would also add that pharmacy school requires you to know A LOT of chemistry and be able to do chemistry based math (figuring out solution concentrations, molarity, density, etc.). It never dawns on a lot of students that pharmacists really have to know chemistry and be able to do math. If you’re good at math and chemistry, I think you won’t find pharmacy school quite as difficult as others. If you’re just hopeless in those subjects, don’t even bother applying. You won’t last one semester… that’s assuming you even make it through the prerequisite chemistry courses.

Pharm Girl says October 9th, 2008 at 8:37 pm

If you want to get into pharmacy school, there are a few things you need to know:

1. It’s competitive. Really competitive. I’m in my final year of pharm school. The year I applied we had 4 times as many applicants as there were spots, and it’s only gone up from there. I hear the California schools are even worse (but I don’t live there so I can’t be sure).

NOTE: She means competitive to get into some schools. The program itself it not competitive amongst the students…at least, if it is, that’s fucking bullshit and don’t go to a school like that.

2. The PCAT is like having your wisdom teeth out, only they don’t give you any drugs. It’s about 6 hours long and covers math, biology, chemistry, reading, and writing. The good news is you can retake it if you don’t do well the first time.

3. Keep those grades up. Above a 3.5 is best. Between a 3.0 and a 3.5 and you’re on the bubble. Below a 3.0 and you will get no farther than the dean’s trash can. (Harsh but true.)

4. You will have to interview to get in. Treat this like a job interview, and be nice to everybody, especially the receptionist. Also, brush up on pharmacy news before you go in. If something major (like the Vioxx recall) happens during the application cycle, you can bet somebody will ask you about it.

5. If you get rejected, don’t despair. It doesn’t mean you’re dumb or that you’ll never get in. I know a bunch of folks who got in on the second try. Figure out what went wrong this time, fix it, and try again!

Sabio says October 9th, 2008 at 11:09 pm

What about vacations? I’ve already started freshman in pharmacy school and I’m supposed to be typing a three page paper right now. I already have a fantasy of a looooooooonnnnnnnnggggg Bahamas vacation right now and it is not even Thanksgiving yet.

Pharmacy chick says October 10th, 2008 at 12:11 am

I’m old, 45, so my class was all of 30 people back in the 80’s. My eyes about bugged out when I read you had 220 in your class? Gawd.
BTW, If I picture you as a dr, and after reading blog for awhile, I’d see you as Dr House…minus the vicodin addiction…..
BWAHahahahahah

thetwitchytechnician says October 10th, 2008 at 10:37 am

My school doesn’t have direct seating, so you spend your first two to four years following a “pre-pharm” track. Every degree, BA, BS, Bio, Chem, Biochem (only the most insane take that one) have their own requirements in order to apply to the school’s pharm program. Some schools require half of what mine does, others require more. PCATs are the Be All, End All. Fuckers.

What I love most right now is sitting in class, listening to the other 18 year old pre-pharms chatter excitedly about the degree. I ask them if they’ve ever worked retail or plan on it. The answer is almost always “no”. Then I laugh. Then I tell them get a job in retail NOW before they apply. They give me this deer in headlights stare. Those are the ones that burn out after 1 year in retail because the damn PharmD programs don’t prepare you for community, just clinical.

newpharmd says October 10th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

1. As has been stated above most pharm schools now require 2 years of pre-pharm before you can get into pharm school. There aren’t that many straight from high school into pharm school programs anymore. In my class under a quarter got in with 2 years prepharm, a little over a quarter got in with 3 years, and about half had a BA or BS degree. An administrator for the school told me within a decade they will require a degree before admission

There are plenty. # Albany College of Pharmacy # Duquesne University # Florida A & M University # Hampton University # Massachusetts – Boston # Northeastern University # Ohio Northern University # University of the Pacific # Philadelphia College of Pharmacy # Rutgers University # St. John’s University # St. Louis College of Pharmacy # University of Connecticut #University of Findlay # University of Mississippi # University of Rhode Island # University of Texas at Austin

The 2+4 schools as he talks about are many. But you have to apply to pharm school and start after the 2nd year.

2. It is extremely competitive now. My school had something like 700 people apply for 100 spots last year. Granted a good portion of those were thrown out without a second look but there were still a lot of good candidates who didn’t get in. The PCAT seems to be very, very, important. I can think of under a handful of people I knew in pharmacy school who scored below the 80ith percentile. You need to do well on the PCAT. The best way to do good on the PCAT is to really try to learn what they teach you in chemistry and biology. Both those sections are heavily weighted along with the math. You really need to keep up your math and science GPA as well. It is looked at much more so then you total GPA. A 3.0 math and science GPA is a must and a 3.2-3.5 is probably the average at most schools in the country.
3. Schools are really looking for people with some kind of pharmacy experience now. They are getting sick of people who graduate with a chemistry or biology degree and don’t know what they want to do so they apply to med/pharm/ whatever other grad school and then go to whatever one lets them in. These people will never last in pharmacy and the schools know it. If you don’t have experience at least have a good, believable story as to why you want to be a pharmacist that amounts to something other than that is seems like a good job with good money.

Pharmacy Mike says October 11th, 2008 at 12:11 am

Hey Angriest,

Is the edit you made to that comment above (where you listed the schools) supposed to be schools that accept you straight out of high school? That’s what it looked like.

I know for a fact that at least one of those schools that you listed is a 2 year prepharm, apply, be accepted, then 4 year pharmacy school program.

Yeah, I pulled that off the ACPE website somewhere. 13 or so schools…

Currently applying says October 11th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

I disagree that the PCAT is a big deal.. but maybe that’s just cuz I was an insane biochem major. Do get a Kaplan book or some sort and do go through it and take the practice tests and study what you’re rusty on.. yes it’s a long test but you’re in college, you likely took the ACTs or SATs, it’s not THAT bad..

Sometimes I wish I’d been more on top of it when I was 18 and gone to a 2+4 or 0+6 or whatever program, but now that I’m where I am I’m glad I got my BS before I go to get my PharmD. (I mean, I KNOW this is what I want to do, but look at that poll; about half of the responders wouldn’t do it again.. so it’s nice to have that degree to fall back on). I spent a total of 5 years doing my undergrad and getting my tech license to work first retail, now hospital. I will be taking a ton of experience with me and I feel very well prepared, plus I had time to have a life in college and participate in student-run clinics and volunteer groups.

At the last two open houses I went to, a CA public school and a CA private school, the admissions directors were SO happy to tell us that the average admitted GPA last year was NOT a 4.0! (I think around 3.4-3.5.) As mentioned by others, they are definitely looking for “whole package” people. They want experience, community service, leaders, people who know what they want and why they want it, and who are likely to do well… but they understand that it’s more than just GPA (and out here they don’t care about the PCAT).

For people who wants to know what the requirements are for schools, check out http://www.pharmcas.com; a bunch (most?) schools participate in this centralized application, and they have “school pages” for all participating schools outlining requirements, deadlines, pre-req’s, etc.

The link looks pretty solid — you can apply to a ton of school or at least get the applicable information.

chad says October 12th, 2008 at 12:01 am

My school was a 2 pre-pharm, apply, then 4 pharm school. Since I have graduated, they have added more prerequisites before you can apply to the pharmacy school. Now it is almost impossible to complete all the required courses in 2 years, so they have basically turned it into a 3-4 years of pre-pharm. Also, I think the PCAT is important, but not the end all be all. If you do really well on it and have decent grades you are gonna get accepted, even without extracurriculars/experience and all that other shit. If you do not do as well on it you can still get in with a good interview and GPA (knowing people also helps).

Sarah says November 4th, 2008 at 10:44 pm

I work in a medical office and spoke with one of the pharmacists today about the requirements. He is close friends with somebody on the board of the University I want to attend when I am done with my pre-reqs, and he said that it really does help you get in if you have you BS, but I don’t want to wait that long. I scored a 31 on the ACT two years ago in high school, but I’m terrified to know that will be on the PCAT.
In February I am going to apply to be a pharm tech at my work, I’m involved with community service and I have all A’s right now in college, but I still worry that it’s not enough.
I wish there were a way to know FOR SURE what will get you into pharm school…. it’s so nerve-wracking not knowing 100% that it’s enough.

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